Cabot Conversations: Resilient Cities - Global progress from local solutions

Professor Susan Parnell, who researches the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) in African cities, talks to Bristol City Council's Allan Macleod about how the SDGs are implemented in the city of Bristol and what can be learned at the local scale in order to make global progress on the Goals.

Transcript

00:00:07 Cabot Institute 

Welcome to Cabot conversations produced by the Cabot Institute for the Environment at the University of Bristol. 

00:00:13 Cabot Institute 

We are a diverse community of 600 experts united by a common cause protecting our environment and identifying ways of living better with our changing planet. 

00:00:23 Cabot Institute 

This podcast series brings together our experts and collaborators to discuss complex environmental challenges and solutions to climate change. In this episode, Professor Sue Parnell and Alan MacLeod discuss resilient cities, global progress from local solutions. 

00:00:39 Cabot Institute 

You can find out more about the Cabot Institute for the environment at bristol.ac.uk/cabot. 

00:00:52 Prof Sue Parnell 

Hi everybody. My name is Sue Parnell. I'm a professor of urban geography here at the University of Bristol. 

00:01:00 Prof Sue Parnell 

But I'm also an emeritus professor at the University of Cape Town, where I've been very centrally involved in something called the African Centre for Cities, and in both of those capacities. 

00:01:11 Prof Sue Parnell 

Of had a research interest and their practice interest actually in the sustainable Development Goals, I was one of the people who was engaged in the process that led up to G11, which if you don't know the numbers, is the urban goal. But. 

00:01:31 Prof Sue Parnell 

And more generally concerned with those issues of kind of how do we get from big changes in our ideas to really big changes in practice? And that's one of the things that cabinets. 

00:01:43 Prof Sue Parnell 

The Combat Institute has been concerned with, and both Ellen and I are interested in cities as as that as a particular place and scale for that implementation. So Alan. 

00:01:56 Allan Macleod 

Hi. Yeah, my name is Allan Macleod. I am Bristol's SDG research and engagement associate, SDG's, being the UN Sustainable Development Goals that Sue has already mentioned. But my role has been about coordinating activity and engagement with the Sustainable Development Goals at a really local level. 

00:02:16 Allan Macleod 

In the city of Bristol, we've been learning from other examples. Other cities around the world. 

00:02:22 Allan Macleod 

Working with academics and with practitioners within the city to try and understand how we can best adopt them for Bristol and how we can try and make sure that the SDG's and and the the sort of interdisciplinary and multi dimensional element of the SDG's is something that we can deliver effectively for the complex unit that our city. 

00:02:42 Allan Macleod 

Can be and we've been trying to do that in Bristol for the last 3 1/2 years and my role has been trying to coordinate not just the Council or the academics around this, but the whole city working with an alliance and a network that we have in Bristol of. 

00:02:56 Allan Macleod 

Businesses charity. 

00:02:58 Allan Macleod 

These uh, public private third sector organisations to to try to ensure that the SDG's become something that everyone in Bristol's involved in. 

00:03:08 Prof Sue Parnell 

And I'm I'm delighted to have this chance to talk because normally we would bump into each other, but it's not normal terms, is it so and part of why I really did want to touch base with you was Sylvia. Chris and I are busy pulling together a new book on implementing the SDG's in Africa and part. 

00:03:12 Allan Macleod 

Yeah. 

00:03:28 Prof Sue Parnell 

So the reason for that is that as you know, there's not normally a very articulate or a well recorded account of what what goes on in African city. 

00:03:37 Prof Sue Parnell 

But we're we're getting to the point of trying to kind of think about how different is Africa from other places and the experience of the SDG's and Bristol keeps popping up as as one of the cities. That's that's kind of had a global role in in kind of talking about the main. 

00:03:56 Prof Sue Parnell 

Challenges of of of, of implementation and so yeah, I wanted to kind of just do a checklist. I suppose that we were beginning to at least cover some of those things. I mean, this will be a leader in this space. 

00:04:10 Allan Macleod 

Yeah. So I, I mean the the work on the Sustainable Development Goals in Bristol, it began a while back. It began in 2015 just after the goals were adopted and and it's been growing since then. So it's it's not something that's just popped up overnight, it's it's been an A networked approach and it came out of the cities green capital. 

00:04:30 Allan Macleod 

Here that Bristol was chosen to be a European green capital in 2015 and the role in the implementation of the SDG's locally came out of that. 

00:04:39 Allan Macleod 

Year. 

00:04:40 Allan Macleod 

There was a network that formed around the goals. 

00:04:43 Allan Macleod 

Thinking about how the city as a whole could use these goals and how relevant these goals were to Bristol, and I think that's a really key question for any city is, you know, what is the use of this sort of international agenda? Why do cities need to talk to an international agenda or try to deliver on one? Can't they focus on the challenges that they face within the city? 

00:05:02 Allan Macleod 

But I think something that the SDG's provide is, is that common discourse across the world, and they provide an opportunity for cities to collaborate on their common challenges. It's not necessarily the same policy context or the same exact political. 

00:05:19 Allan Macleod 

Or social environment across the world. 

00:05:22 Allan Macleod 

But what the SDGS do? 

00:05:24 Allan Macleod 

As they provide a a framework for discussing and collaborating in different contexts, they provide that common set of challenges that that all these different cities face, and that's part of the reason why the SDG's have been found to be useful. In Bristol. We get to learn from other cities and we get to support other cities in in adopting the goals. 

00:05:42 Prof Sue Parnell 

Just on before, before we get there, you said something about we formed a network. Who? Who led that process, I mean, because one of the things we're really interested in after context is leadership. So who leads the process and who facilitates the process? What happened in Bristol? 

00:05:57 Allan Macleod 

The the Bristol. 

00:05:58 Allan Macleod 

Process is quite an interesting one because there's a mix of top down and bottom up at the same time. The work that we've been doing. 

00:06:04 Allan Macleod 

Has both been. 

00:06:06 Allan Macleod 

Coordinated and led by this, this city network of of partners and and that's some of it academia, some of it civil society, that original SDG network, the SDG alliance was. 

00:06:18 Allan Macleod 

Coordinated by the Bristol Green Capital Partnership, which is that legacy organisation from that green Capital year and effectively we. 

00:06:27 Allan Macleod 

We grew from there working with city partners and working with those who are interested, but at the same time, there was a really interesting increase in political support as well. We had a lot of support from from. 

00:06:40 Allan Macleod 

The mayor of. 

00:06:41 Allan Macleod 

Bristol and some. 

00:06:42 Allan Macleod 

Of that comes down to the the diverse nature of Bristol and the opportunity to speak about these common challenge. 

00:06:48 Allan Macleod 

Is that are being delivered across the world, you know, Bristol's got a really large diverse population and actually talking through the language of the SDG's and trying to deliver the SDG's will not only impact in Bristol, but it will impact Bristol's communities around the world and the networks that Bristol has with communities around the world. So there's 91 different languages spoken in Bristol. 

00:07:08 Allan Macleod 

And lots of different countries represented and and and that opportunity to deliver on a global agenda is really powerful for, for political levels. But there's also a big opportunity to deliver both social and environmental challenges in the same framework. And I think that's the other element for Bristol's politicians is bringing that to. 

00:07:26 Allan Macleod 

Yeah. 

00:07:27 Prof Sue Parnell 

That's exactly what I was going to ask about because so some of what we've seen is that some cities really struggle. They either have a very strong social focus or they have a very strong environmental focus. But the whole point of the SDG's is that you look in across the border, those issues of complexity and social, economic and environmental issues. I mean, has there been awaiting? 

00:07:47 Prof Sue Parnell 

One way or the other in in the Bristol case. 

00:07:51 Allan Macleod 

I think what it's allowed in the Bristol case is the opportunity to bring both to the table and I wouldn't I I think there's there's groups in Bristol that really do have a weight in one way or the other and there's areas of the city that are really focused on some elements of the SDG's and they come to this framework with their ambitions for those. 

00:08:11 Allan Macleod 

To those aspects on environmental or on social and and then what you get by bringing the the two together under this frame? 

00:08:17 Allan Macleod 

Like is those groups sat around the same table having these discussions and those organisations beginning to think about wider than just their own ambitions and wider than just the environmental network. You know, we've got new movements in Bristol around how do we engage with areas of the city that have traditionally faced large. 

00:08:38 Allan Macleod 

Inequalities, you know, different ethnic groups or different socioeconomic groups in Bristol. But equally we've got great movements of of, of areas of the city that have had great prosperity and success that are now engaging with environmental movements who hadn't previously. And I think that's a really. 

00:08:54 Allan Macleod 

Powerful. 

00:08:55 Allan Macleod 

Aspect of the SDG framework. 

00:08:58 Prof Sue Parnell 

And and in order to do that, I mean, one of the things which is really marked in in quite a lot. 

00:09:02 Prof Sue Parnell 

Of the African. 

00:09:03 Prof Sue Parnell 

Context is that they they've had individuals and groups who know and have quite deep expertise in a particular area or in a particular part of the city. 

00:09:15 Prof Sue Parnell 

But they've really had to ramp up the data information systems because they just are missing huge chunks of data. So in beginning to sort of think about. 

00:09:26 Prof Sue Parnell 

Kind of moving beyond the political importance of the SDG process and changing things locally, but beginning to report in, you know, some of the voluntary local reviews, the local version of what the national governments are doing when they report back to to the UN on progress on the SDG is there just hasn't been very much data. 

00:09:47 Prof Sue Parnell 

In place and a couple of cities that have done really well on that, I mean it's a well resourced city like Bristol had to change anything. Can you just use what's there? 

00:09:56 Allan Macleod 

I think there's definitely gaps still and there's areas that that as a city we want to do more and that's partly down to the way that we want. 

00:10:02 Allan Macleod 

To work in Bristol because. 

00:10:04 Allan Macleod 

We're we're trying to deliver the the framework and the agenda for the whole city, so it's not just the Council and it's not just the the employees of the Council that we're trying to deliver it for. 

00:10:16 Allan Macleod 

It needs a whole city buy in and actually data for a whole city and for all the organisations in a city is difficult to get, so there's lots in Bristol that we still want to. 

00:10:25 Allan Macleod 

Do. 

00:10:26 Allan Macleod 

I think one of the challenges with the voluntary local review and that process of cities monitoring the SDG. 

00:10:31 Allan Macleod 

Is that it can just become about the city government and what the city government is trying to do. But actually what we need to work towards is more of a an approach to city governance that brings all of the parts and all of the components to the city together because I think that's one of the key challenges for for any of these issues, they're so interconnected and so. 

00:10:52 Allan Macleod 

So multifaceted that actually when you're trying to to tackle them, you need more than just what the city government can bring to the table. You need all the levers of power within a city and that requires so much more. So actually monitoring any changes in that requires even more. I think we've we've been fortunate in Bristol. I I don't wanna say that we've had a we've had it tough. 

00:11:12 Allan Macleod 

Because we've really, we've got some great data systems in Bristol, we've got some really strong evidence in that in that regard. 

00:11:19 Allan Macleod 

But we want. 

00:11:21 Allan Macleod 

And I think that's one of the challenges for cities. As always, there's always more that you could have. And I guess one of the the sort of key points that I've taken away from our work on the SDG's is better to begin and try and start with where, where you are and understand where you are then to not begin at all. And and I think that's one of the key challenges for cities everywhere. 

00:11:40 Allan Macleod 

Is not feeling like they have the capacity to begin because they don't have the stuff in place yet, but actually it's better to have those conversations and to start the work rather than to just get bogged down in in trying to find all the right things first. 

00:11:56 Prof Sue Parnell 

That's certainly what we see in the African context and and an astonishing number of cities actually have absolutely bought in and. 

00:12:03 Prof Sue Parnell 

Very consciously, using the CG framework, partly interestingly to to use it for this kind of harmonisation across sectors, so but also just as a kind of a normative change away to shift the way that government and and the populace the, the, the voting kind of cohort talk about what they want. 

00:12:22 Prof Sue Parnell 

That's been really helpful. I I wanted to run back though to something you said in in, in, in when you were talking in in response to my last question was. 

00:12:31 Prof Sue Parnell 

You talked a lot about the city, what we see in in African context is that quite a lot of other places that towns and and some of them are towns, not cities, that are doing well. 

00:12:44 Prof Sue Parnell 

Are doing so because they're working with other bits of government better on the SDG's and my sense of of a relatively recent arrival in Bristol is that there's a bit of a disjunction between what goes on at the city scale and what is happening at the national scale and the STD's. 

00:13:03 Prof Sue Parnell 

Am I out of touch and is are there better links than? I think there are and and what's you know, how important is this kind of cross sector collaboration? 

00:13:15 Allan Macleod 

I think there's a there's a range and it does depend on what topic you're talking about in terms of what the, what the collaboration there is with the national government and. 

00:13:25 Allan Macleod 

We've got really strong ambitions on issues like climate in Bristol and we've got a lot of activity that we're trying to get through, but a lot of the powers to deliver that are held at the national government and so we're constantly in conversation with them about trying to change that, about trying to change, you know, the power. 

00:13:41 Allan Macleod 

We have or the. 

00:13:43 Allan Macleod 

Or trying to influence the power that's held in. 

00:13:45 Allan Macleod 

In London and trying to change the way that that is distributed across the country and that's a that's attention that we have to to hold you know is is something that is is difficult for a city that has aspirations. 

00:13:58 Prof Sue Parnell 

Thinking that though, or is national leading that who's who's kind of? 

00:14:03 Allan Macleod 

I think the. 

00:14:04 Prof Sue Parnell 

It's. 

00:14:04 Allan Macleod 

City in this case is is probably the one that's pushing on the door asking for more, asking for change, asking for something new. There's also, you know, there's a tension that actually locally we've got a different elected group from the the government that's in power nationally. So that's always going to be. There's always going to be some. 

00:14:23 Allan Macleod 

Some tension and some frustrations there, just as they aim politically for different things. So there's there's always a bit of tension, but you know, we work quite closely with the the Members of Parliament who represent us in in Whitehall and who represent us in the House of Commons. And it's it's something that we try to improve on and throughout the. 

00:14:41 Allan Macleod 

The the recent COVID pandemic is something that we've been doing quite a. 

00:14:45 Allan Macleod 

Lot of is. 

00:14:46 Allan Macleod 

Raising the challenges that the city has faced with our MP's so they can bring that to the discussions in Parliament so that we can then see change in the bills that come through and it doesn't happen every time. But it's something that we're trying to do better on. 

00:15:00 Prof Sue Parnell 

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the advantages of having a directly elected representative. Not not everywhere has that. So that's interesting. So in, in and some other bits of national governments. So you use MP's, what other kinds of conduits are you able to use? 

00:15:14 

Please. 

00:15:15 Allan Macleod 

I mean, we worked quite closely with a number of the government departments. We've been really quite well connected to the team that lead on the SDG's within central government. And we've also attended a few Cabinet Office meetings and and supported conversations about how the goals can be used within the UK. We work with the all party. 

00:15:35 Allan Macleod 

Parliamentary group on the SDG's and and we also then talked to various different government departments on SDG adoption and and we. 

00:15:44 Allan Macleod 

Been supporting the Ministry for Housing, Communities and local government and and talking to them about the SDG's. We've been having conversations with the Planning Inspectorate around how towns and cities can use these goals. So it's something that that we try to do and we recognize that we need the support of those. 

00:16:05 Allan Macleod 

Those partners in those department. 

00:16:07 Allan Macleod 

I think you're right when you say that in the African context, it definitely the examples of places that are successful are those that do work with the the national government and and that's partly why we yeah. And that's partly why we're trying to do that better. And many of our best successes are those ones where we do collaborate well with the national. 

00:16:26 Prof Sue Parnell 

And the regional stuff, because I'm and again just using the sort of generic actually you can't generalize across continent, but actually the regional authority. So the African Union, African Economic Commission, even the African Development Bank actually have been very influential in in setting regional policy frameworks. 

00:16:43 Prof Sue Parnell 

I mean, does it matter? Of course it matters in all sorts of ways. We don't have to go through the the INS and outs of Brexit, but, but I suppose what I'm asking is, is do you go from Bristol to national government, N Strait to a global level and and engage with the Secretary General? Or are you able to use regional bodies at all? 

00:17:02 Allan Macleod 

I mean, just last week we supported a a regional forum side event about the importance of cities and the need for cities to. 

00:17:10 Allan Macleod 

Collaborate and to work on the SDG agenda in in this post COVID recovery time and that was with partners from the US as well as partners from Europe and and and with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Foreign Commonwealth Development Office even. And so that's working with the UK national government. 

00:17:29 Allan Macleod 

The other chief planner on that call, we were talking to her about what we've been doing. 

00:17:33 Allan Macleod 

In. 

00:17:33 Allan Macleod 

Bristol from Ministry of Housing and Local Government. And then we also had international partners and and we were supporting the the UN Economic Commission for Europe side event in that space. And so I think. 

00:17:47 Allan Macleod 

There's a there's an element that you can jump straight to the the national straight past the national to the international or to the to the the regional. But there's also a need to work with the national government, and we've done that in other ways as well around data. Working with the Office for National Statistics. But we are also collaborating directly at the international level. 

00:18:07 Allan Macleod 

Bristol's the city is working quite closely with actually work quite closely with Accra and with Durban on on the SDG framework through a network called the the the Brookings Institute, SDG City Leadership Network, and we we collaborate with them and we try to learn from each other, but also try to challenge each other. 

00:18:27 Allan Macleod 

To to drive further into the SDG agenda and. 

00:18:29 Allan Macleod 

So there's a real opportunity here for cities to to talk directly 1 to one on on this, but also to to challenge each other and to push. 

00:18:38 Allan Macleod 

Further. 

00:18:39 Allan Macleod 

Both at the national level within their own government, but also at the international level, and that's something that I've seen at a lot of the the UN meetings I've been. 

00:18:46 Allan Macleod 

Involved. 

00:18:47 Allan Macleod 

In is this trend of cities? 

00:18:49 Allan Macleod 

Calling for their voices to be heard. 

00:18:52 Prof Sue Parnell 

Very interesting, isn't it? Because for me, what's what's fascinating about what you describe is that there's an almost exact parallel in other regions. And and it's a similar kind of mix of thought leaders. 

00:19:02 Prof Sue Parnell 

Where university based academics are really central, both to the convening of it and the setting and the agenda of it, and of documenting it. But they absolutely are not the only players in the room. You know, those, they, they're these incredibly important and they they're a relatively new breed I think and of of people who occupy. 

00:19:22 Prof Sue Parnell 

Positions which are not direct delivery in cities or in in the multilateral organisations, but are somehow really fundamental for this kind of nudging of this enormous, great big ship. I mean, what? What strikes me though is. 

00:19:36 Prof Sue Parnell 

Is that you know, it's really hard. 

00:19:39 Prof Sue Parnell 

To to get. 

00:19:40 Prof Sue Parnell 

Clear lines of sight of kind of what needs to be done and how to make strategic interventions with the appropriate kind of evidence that you require. I mean, do you feel attention, for example, in in the focus on the SDG's and on climate change? I mean, so how important, I suppose? 

00:19:57 Prof Sue Parnell 

My question is for cities is. 

00:20:00 

Up. 

00:20:01 Prof Sue Parnell 

And being present at cup for the clear message about SG-11 because because that's the one thing I'm not hearing at the moment, particularly largely from the African region and part of that is COVID. It's going to be incredibly difficult to get to cop, but what's we're still thinking about that. 

00:20:18 Allan Macleod 

In terms of. 

00:20:19 Allan Macleod 

The concert parties in Glasgow in in November, I think the city as a whole is actually really behind it as an opportunity and I think that's because we we recognised the need for change, both change in terms of national and in terms of. 

00:20:35 Allan Macleod 

National and we also recognise that it's not something, you know, if Bristol delivers on the Sustainable Development goals and on its climate ambitions. 

00:20:43 Allan Macleod 

It's not gonna mean that the world delivers on it. The city needs to work with other places to deliver on all of these issues. And actually. 

00:20:52 Allan Macleod 

We see this forum and this space as a as a perfect opportunity for cities to collaborate better and to work better, but also to challenge, and I think that's one of the key things is there's gonna be a lot of challenge around, you know, how do we finance cities so they they can make the the changes that. 

00:21:08 Allan Macleod 

Need it and how do we give cities the power that is needed to take action because in many places around the world they. 

00:21:15 Allan Macleod 

Don't have that power. 

00:21:17 Allan Macleod 

Or that financing to actually do what is needed. Most cities know what needs to happen, and a lot of cities are the ones that are championing the sort of climate emergencies and and the rapid decarbonisation. 

00:21:30 Allan Macleod 

And I know that that's definitely true across Europe and America. I can't speak as. 

00:21:34 Allan Macleod 

Much for the the. 

00:21:35 Allan Macleod 

African continent. But I know that there's ambitions towards that. 

00:21:38 Allan Macleod 

Across the world, and when you look at most of the city work that's happening globally, it is about that smart, low carbon, sustainable cities and there's often an element of thinking about the SDG's and the inequality within that. But if there isn't, then there's definitely a climate element and so many cities are thinking about this. It's just most cities. 

00:21:58 Allan Macleod 

Don't have the capacity to actually deliver on it or the finance to deliver. 

00:22:04 Allan Macleod 

Yeah. 

00:22:04 Prof Sue Parnell 

Is there a discussion in Bristol about whether the SDG's need to be amended and reformed in the light of the pandemic, or extended the time frames extended at all? 

00:22:15 Allan Macleod 

I think we see the work post COVID as a big opportunity to to try and take action on the SDG's, and I think it's given everyone a kick to basically say, you know, we need, we need a change and things can change quickly. And so it's it's actually brought a lot of people together around the cults. It's brought some of our economy board. 

00:22:35 Allan Macleod 

And and some of the. 

00:22:36 Prof Sue Parnell 

I mean the SG's are where the health SG's are very kind of narrow. 

00:22:41 Prof Sue Parnell 

And you know, siloed in a way, I mean they the, the urban health agenda is not well profiled in the SDG's. Is there no concern about that? 

00:22:49 Allan Macleod 

I think there is. I think there is concern and there's there's conversations we've had with other cities about this, about what? What the the next steps for the SDG's are do we need to reset them? Do we need to to realign the targets for them so that they're actually achievable? But the question of achievability of the SDG's has been one since the start. As far as I can tell, I think. 

00:23:10 Allan Macleod 

A lot of places have said are these even things we're going to be able to deliver before COVID so. 

00:23:15 Allan Macleod 

It feels like we still need that ambition. We still need that drive to try and get us there. We still need that opportunity of bringing together all the partners across the world, across nations and across cities to to deliver on these goals. So we need to drive towards them. And almost I think. 

00:23:35 Allan Macleod 

If we try to reset them, we will lose some of that momentum that is beginning to build. 

00:23:41 Prof Sue Parnell 

Interesting. Very interesting. 

00:23:42 Allan Macleod 

Do you do you think in, in from the conversations you're having in in with African partners? That's something that they're feeling or they're they're suggesting. 

00:23:51 Prof Sue Parnell 

Look, I think they're huge anxieties in in that context about achievability and the ambition, you know, I mean, it's the, it's the global problem, right? Until you achieve the CG's in African cities, you haven't achieved them anywhere and and and the gap between even the way very limited ambitions have been placed and the reality on the ground. 

00:24:12 Prof Sue Parnell 

Is huge and it will be even bigger in the post pandemic world, so it does it absolutely brings home the. 

00:24:20 Prof Sue Parnell 

The magnitude of the challenge, I mean, for me, what what is striking though is that. 

00:24:27 Prof Sue Parnell 

There certainly is a sense that the overall direction of travel is the correct one, even if the pace of travel is inadequate. And even if the mechanisms for implementation are not yet sufficient. And so those really crucial questions about kind of how do you ensure that money is put in the right places so it can be spent in the right places? 

00:24:47 Prof Sue Parnell 

How do you ensure that you don't build cities and ways that you then have to retrofit and decarbonised later that you know the roads that people write forget about build back? Better. Can we just build in the first? 

00:24:56 Prof Sue Parnell 

Place. 

00:24:58 Prof Sue Parnell 

That is correct and will actually be sustainable. So those I think are some of the sort of crucial things and and the social question implied in some of those really basic. 

00:25:08 Prof Sue Parnell 

Targets of water and sanitation, and so the crusts ESG agenda, where you're not just looking at. 

00:25:14 Prof Sue Parnell 

What's going to happen in cities, but you actually look at how all the other stages are going to be implemented in these places that are growing so fast and that are going to determine our global future, not least because if you can't manage the markets of African cities in ways that are sustainable, we know we're going to land up with all sorts of verbal threats, so. 

00:25:35 Prof Sue Parnell 

But I think what's exciting for me about the post pandemic world is that I think hopefully this beginning of a recovery. 

00:25:41 Prof Sue Parnell 

Nation that local challenges need local solutions and local people, but without local solutions, you will never make global progress and and so I think there's a kind of a there's a muscle and a power to the African voice and the institutes have been quite a powerful vehicle. 

00:26:02 Prof Sue Parnell 

In in mobilising that so on balance, and it's not without really, really serious problems with implementation. You know, countries which have got no devolved authority to local to local government where you've got enormous cities with no data. 

00:26:17 Prof Sue Parnell 

Really in place where you have leadership that. 

00:26:20 Prof Sue Parnell 

Is is, it's. 

00:26:21 Prof Sue Parnell 

Extremely difficult to communicate across a large city. Not everybody is connected in the same sort of way. And Alan, what really strikes me is that in the Afghan case a little bit like crystal, although much more uneven and. 

00:26:37 Prof Sue Parnell 

And often around particular sectors, rather around a a more sustained, holistic ECG agenda. It does seem that what's happening is that there are local initiatives and local interventions that are. 

00:26:51 Prof Sue Parnell 

Are are independent of national government sometimes, certainly that are even more ambitious than national government on occasions, but. 

00:27:01 Prof Sue Parnell 

Actually they they they are indicative of enormous energy and hope they tend to work best when coordinated with national governments and with regional processes. But on balance, it seems that the the logic of the SDG's, the ambition of the SDG's, the idea of a global agenda has galvanized. 

00:27:21 Prof Sue Parnell 

A direction of travel that has been helpful in thinking about where we want cities to be in order to create a a more sustainable world. 

00:27:31 Allan Macleod 

And what would you if, if you could have any success over the next five years in your work and and what? What's the key thing you would want to to see delivered in the next five years? 

00:27:40 Allan Macleod 

With with your work. 

00:27:42 Prof Sue Parnell 

Look, it depends at what level you're talking about in, in terms of the global STG stuff. For me, what's really fundamental is to realise that until we actually deal with the imperatives of African cities, as some of the poorest in the world and some of. 

00:27:59 Prof Sue Parnell 

The least well. 

00:28:00 Prof Sue Parnell 

Resources that we will not achieve any global ambition. So we absolutely need examples. We need progress, we need action. We can't not act, you know, in Copenhagen because you have yet to achieve what you need to do in dwala. But until we've got everything. 

00:28:21 Prof Sue Parnell 

Acting voila, there isn't much hope for anybody sitting in Copenhagen, and I think it's that ability to to think locally, act locally, but to understand global drivers and global consequences. 

00:28:35 Prof Sue Parnell 

Things that happen in and through cities that would be for me, the ambition, if urbanists can grab that and speak to that question and engage with policymakers. 

00:28:46 Prof Sue Parnell 

To prioritize and to deal with that kind of complexity. It's a very complex demand. Then we will have made significant progress. So yeah, you. 

00:28:57 Allan Macleod 

I think it's about that that complexity and recognizing the need for multiple partners in delivering on the complexity and the more. 

00:29:04 Allan Macleod 

Other cities begin to work within themselves better, but also with each other. I think is the more we will see change at a quicker scale as well. I think it's as we see businesses and charities and cities and academia coming together. 

00:29:25 Allan Macleod 

To solve these common challenges. 

00:29:27 Allan Macleod 

And then roll them out across the world. I think that is where we will hopefully see rapid change, but it's going to take, it's going to take a a fair amount of humility, I think from organizations and from, from those in power across the world to recognise that actually we do need that local voice and we do need those local actors like you've been. 

00:29:47 Allan Macleod 

Saying like I've been saying. 

00:29:48 Prof Sue Parnell 

Good to talk. We need to have car. Hopefully we can get back into the corridor and have some of these conversations and and begin to reflect on on the different challenges from different parts of the world that be a really nice thing. 

00:30:01 Allan Macleod 

Exactly over a coffee and a cup of tea. 

00:30:03 Prof Sue Parnell 

And what needs to? 

00:30:04 Prof Sue Parnell 

Be prioritized in different places, because I think that's one of the the roles of scholars is is not just to push the idea that things are complex, but then also to help order thought and evidence to distill. So we are able to actually make. 

00:30:20 Prof Sue Parnell 

The right decisions at the right time and and that we we deal with some of the things problems which where there's increments with evidence that that's really important thing to do. So yeah. 

00:30:30 Allan Macleod 

I think the the key message is one. 

00:30:32 Allan Macleod 

I I said a bit earlier. 

00:30:33 

Is. 

00:30:34 Allan Macleod 

You need to listen to cities. You need to listen to the challenges that cities face, and you need to support cities. 

00:30:41 Allan Macleod 

Their key innovators in delivering on all of these agendas and and cities are a great place to to test opportunities for innovation. They're much closer to the problems, and they're closer to solutions often, and they're they're better at trialing and and innovating those solutions. So it's it's about respecting the challenges that cities face. 

00:31:01 Allan Macleod 

And recognizing that they have a key role in the delivery of them and that actually. 

00:31:06 Allan Macleod 

Cities working together with partners, with national governments, with other international cities, are going to be key in our delivery of any of these agendas and any of the ambitions that. 

00:31:18 Allan Macleod 

We hold for the future of the world. 

00:31:20 Allan Macleod 

But what about you, Sue? What? What would you say is your? 

00:31:23 Allan Macleod 

Your. 

00:31:23 Allan Macleod 

Sort of. Your key message to to policymakers. 

00:31:27 Prof Sue Parnell 

Well, I've got a relatively short term key message for for policy makers, it's it's it's not immediate. It's a short medium term thing, which is that. 

00:31:34 Prof Sue Parnell 

I think the case has now been made and everybody accepts it that cities are absolutely fundamental to any large scale transformation. Were you talking about climate change or were you talking about biodiversity or whether you talking about social equity? 

00:31:47 Prof Sue Parnell 

The problem is that those ideas are driven nationally and globally, and there are no platforms, no institutional mechanisms for ensuring that you hear the voice of cities. 

00:32:00 Prof Sue Parnell 

And so making sure that you find whether it's a conference of mayors, whether it's a an urban science, a structure, an organization, there's, there is no no mechanism for consolidating and amalgamating or disseminating the urban agenda as it relates to. 

00:32:20 Prof Sue Parnell 

Any of the big global challenges and so for me, trying to establish something which works in that way, which can provide evidence. 

00:32:27 Prof Sue Parnell 

And which can distribute evidence to the right scale is fundamental cause the local scale absolutely can't be ignored, and at the moment there's a disconnect. 

00:32:40 Prof Sue Parnell 

In the way that we deal with that in, in the kind of broad area of urban policy and urban science. So you know it's it's not an overnight task, but I think it's something that could be achieved relatively easily. 

00:32:59 Cabot Institute 

You can find out more about the Cabot Institute for the environment at bristol.ac.uk/cabot.